Bob Dylan — Love Minus Zero, No Limit
Album: Bringing It All Back HomeAvg rating:
Your rating:
Total ratings: 1514
Length: 2:44
Plays (last 30 days): 0
share
tweet
My love, she speaks like silence
Without ideals or violence
She doesn't have to say she's faithful
Yet she's true like ice, like fire
People carry roses
And make promises by the hours
My love, she laughs like the flowers
Valentines can't buy her
In the dime stores and bus stations
People talk of situations
Read books, repeat quotations
Draw conclusions on the wall
Some speak of the future
My love, she speaks softly
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all
The cloak and dagger dangles
Madams light the candles
In ceremonies of the horsemen
Even the pawn must hold a grudge
Statues made of matchsticks
Crumble into one another
My love winks, she does not bother
She knows too much to argue or to judge
The bridge at midnight trembles
The country doctor rambles
Banker's nieces seek perfection
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring
The wind howls like a hammer
And the night blows rainy
My love, she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing
Without ideals or violence
She doesn't have to say she's faithful
Yet she's true like ice, like fire
People carry roses
And make promises by the hours
My love, she laughs like the flowers
Valentines can't buy her
In the dime stores and bus stations
People talk of situations
Read books, repeat quotations
Draw conclusions on the wall
Some speak of the future
My love, she speaks softly
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all
The cloak and dagger dangles
Madams light the candles
In ceremonies of the horsemen
Even the pawn must hold a grudge
Statues made of matchsticks
Crumble into one another
My love winks, she does not bother
She knows too much to argue or to judge
The bridge at midnight trembles
The country doctor rambles
Banker's nieces seek perfection
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring
The wind howls like a hammer
And the night blows rainy
My love, she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing
Comments (108)add comment
TerryS wrote:
and I can understand what he is singing.
Quick, turn up the volume, it Bob Z and he's singing, actually singing.
and I can understand what he is singing.
itsme_bygolly wrote:
Necessary but not sufficient was my ex-wife's complaint.
thats pretty good
Necessary but not sufficient was my ex-wife's complaint.
thats pretty good
sfoster66 wrote:
I did.
Hmmm...didn't make me PSD...best I can say...
I did.
idiot_wind wrote:
Necessary but not sufficient was my ex-wife's complaint.
you see...hes saying failure is a necessary but not a sufficent condition for success.
its like doing proofs for quasi concavity of curves...determining the necessary and sufficient conditions.
Necessary but not sufficient was my ex-wife's complaint.
you see...hes saying failure is a necessary but not a sufficent condition for success.
its like doing proofs for quasi concavity of curves...determining the necessary and sufficient conditions.
its like doing proofs for quasi concavity of curves...determining the necessary and sufficient conditions.
chuck_flacks wrote:
Building a bit on Chuck's comment (tangentially): For those who don't know* but who are interested, "scan" in this sense is a term used to describe and analyze poetry. Does the meter work? Are the accented and unaccented syllables in rhythm?
* The term confused the hell out of me (and my highly educated parents) when a teacher wrote "doesn't scan" on one of my high school poetry assignments years ago.
I'm amused by the rancor. Fact is, this is a Dylan song that most of us have never heard, from one of his most obscure albums. Yes, as my mother says, "his lyrics don't scan." He crams as many (often nonsensical) lyrics into a phrase as he can, but, like the earnest photographer, in the midst of all of that stuff, comes a few gems. Bob rules! Chuck
Building a bit on Chuck's comment (tangentially): For those who don't know* but who are interested, "scan" in this sense is a term used to describe and analyze poetry. Does the meter work? Are the accented and unaccented syllables in rhythm?
* The term confused the hell out of me (and my highly educated parents) when a teacher wrote "doesn't scan" on one of my high school poetry assignments years ago.
"She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all"
those lyrics are doing a proof for necessary and sufficient conditions.
its freaking cool.
thats why he gets a nobel prize, but not in mathematics
The poet laurate has written hundreds of songs. This masterpiece is among the top 10.
bobby just announced a 2022 tour
and he's 80
thats what rnr will do for you
and he's 80
thats what rnr will do for you
yeah....
Nobel prize
Nobel prize
Paddy_Hannan wrote:
I've listened to this song a million times, but this was one of those lovely occasions when, hearing something in an unexpected context, you hear it with new ears; and hearing this tonight made me both smile widely and want to weep.
What a gorgeous performance and lyric.
My love, she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing
It's beautiful imagery... Joan Baez?
I've listened to this song a million times, but this was one of those lovely occasions when, hearing something in an unexpected context, you hear it with new ears; and hearing this tonight made me both smile widely and want to weep.
What a gorgeous performance and lyric.
My love, she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing
It's beautiful imagery... Joan Baez?
Hmmm...didn't make me PSD...best I can say...
Does song writing get much better than this ?
Hendrix pondered this exact question when listening to Dylan!
Hendrix pondered this exact question when listening to Dylan!
Can a person win two Nobels?
C"mon man.
The answer is blowing in the wind.
C"mon man.
The answer is blowing in the wind.
I've listened to this song a million times, but this was one of those lovely occasions when, hearing something in an unexpected context, you hear it with new ears; and hearing this tonight made me both smile widely and want to weep.
What a gorgeous performance and lyric.
My love, she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing
My favourite Bob Dylan song
chuck_flacks wrote:
WTF?!!
. . . Fact is, this is a Dylan song that most of us have never heard, from one of his most obscure albums. . . .
WTF?!!
Thank you, Canadese, for the comment. Same tour, I'm sure, Dallas 1965. Acoustic first set. Opened after the break with Maggie's Farm, prompting quite a few souls to depart the venue. I sat there in my frat boy getup (SMU) on the fifth row, stunned that a human could create such intensity and chaos. Bless you Bob. You probably deserve another Noble just for laughs.
Canadese wrote:
For me it was Massey Hall, Toronto 1965. After an acoustic set, he went electric backed by The Band, and was booed by all the folkies who didn't like the idea. The rest was history.
idiot_wind wrote:
Yea that is my favorite line from this song too. You know you are an excellent songwriter if you actually remember the words for the clever lyrics not just singing along.
These lyrics are part of logic for doing proofs on number sets...checking for necessary and sufficient conditions to test for quasi-convexity and quasi-concavity of curves.
"She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all"
Cool.
"She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all"
Cool.
Yea that is my favorite line from this song too. You know you are an excellent songwriter if you actually remember the words for the clever lyrics not just singing along.
These lyrics are part of logic for doing proofs on number sets...checking for necessary and sufficient conditions to test for quasi-convexity and quasi-concavity of curves.
"She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all"
Cool.
"She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all"
Cool.
For me it was Massey Hall, Toronto 1965. After an acoustic set, he went electric backed by The Band, and was booed by all the folkies who didn't like the idea. The rest was history.
On_The_Beach wrote:
It's a good start, but I'm sure Bill can increase it. ; )
Hear! Hear! More Bob.
It's a good start, but I'm sure Bill can increase it. ; )
Hear! Hear! More Bob.
a_genuine_find wrote:
It's a good start, but I'm sure Bill can increase it. ; )
1 Dylan song every two hours 
It's a good start, but I'm sure Bill can increase it. ; )
this is acceptable
1 Dylan song every two hours
Steely_D wrote:
Wow! Nice start to a show. Do you remember when & where it was?
First time I saw him, he opened with Maggie's Farm, and this. I coulda just gotten up and walked out then and been very very happy.
Wow! Nice start to a show. Do you remember when & where it was?
Bruce's "The Line" sounds similar to this.
Ten Minus Zero, No Limit
Oops, just saw that another commenter had the same idea...
Oops, just saw that another commenter had the same idea...
First time I saw him, he opened with Maggie's Farm, and this. I coulda just gotten up and walked out then and been very very happy.
There's no success like failure,
And failure is no success at all.
FYI: Dylan is a mathematician as he is stating necessary and sufficient conditions that can also be applied to doing proofs on number sets associated with partial deriviatives and bordered Hessian matrices.
Coooool.
And failure is no success at all.
FYI: Dylan is a mathematician as he is stating necessary and sufficient conditions that can also be applied to doing proofs on number sets associated with partial deriviatives and bordered Hessian matrices.
Coooool.
WonderLizard wrote:
For a lot of fans, that was a huge sell-out at the Newport Folk Festival in July '65. There's a myth that Pete Seeger was enraged by Dylan going electric but Seeger said in at least one interview that he was only pissed that the sound was so bad during Bob's performance. He had no problem with Dylan's choice and noted that Howlin' Wolf did the same thing the day before Dylan.
The whole ancient issue looks pretty pointless and silly these days.
OMG! Dylan went electric! I mean, like, what's that all about?
For a lot of fans, that was a huge sell-out at the Newport Folk Festival in July '65. There's a myth that Pete Seeger was enraged by Dylan going electric but Seeger said in at least one interview that he was only pissed that the sound was so bad during Bob's performance. He had no problem with Dylan's choice and noted that Howlin' Wolf did the same thing the day before Dylan.
The whole ancient issue looks pretty pointless and silly these days.
Biscobret wrote:
Of course it's debatable, just like all opinions.
Is it even debatable that Dylan was the best songwriter ever?...
Of course it's debatable, just like all opinions.
Ahhhh....never tire of this song.
WonderLizard wrote:
Judas!
OMG! Dylan went electric! I mean, like, what's that all about?
Judas!
ScottN wrote:
More importantly why do songs need to fit a formula? Screw the bridge - if he don't want one he don't have to have one.
This BD song has not aged well, imo.
btw, how long did it take him to learn to write a bridge?
btw, how long did it take him to learn to write a bridge?
More importantly why do songs need to fit a formula? Screw the bridge - if he don't want one he don't have to have one.
Lazarus wrote:
marvelous... love it...
Tru Dat
marvelous... love it...
Tru Dat
This BD song has not aged well, imo.
btw, how long did it take him to learn to write a bridge?
btw, how long did it take him to learn to write a bridge?
ThePoose wrote:
The Limit Does Not Exist.
The Limit Does Not Exist!!
Mean Girls.....
Rating = Ten Minus Zero/No Limit
The Limit Does Not Exist.
The Limit Does Not Exist!!
Mean Girls.....
....... luv it .....
OMG! Dylan went electric! I mean, like, what's that all about?
hippiechick wrote:
Excellent choice.
One of the first record albums I purchased, at age 14
Excellent choice.
marvelous... love it...
Quick, turn up the volume, it Bob Z and he's singing, actually singing.
flatpicker wrote:
Although I agree...
That constantly use description is wearing me out!
Everybody in my church loves this song...
Although I agree...
That constantly use description is wearing me out!
Everybody in my church loves this song...
Rating = Ten Minus Zero/No Limit
Biscobret wrote:
Is it even debatable that Dylan was the best songwriter ever? I can't understand the hate - my God, it's perfection - and as said, it's not even a top 100 song! 
My love she speaks like silence,
Without ideals or violence,
She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire.
People carry roses,
Make promises by the hours,
My love she laughs like the flowers,
Valentines can't buy her.
In the dime stores and bus stations,
People talk of situations,
Read books, repeat quotations,
Draw conclusions on the wall.
Some speak of the future,
My love she speaks softly,
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all.
The cloak and dagger dangles,
Madams light the candles.
In ceremonies of the horsemen,
Even the pawn must hold a grudge.
Statues made of match sticks,
Crumble into one another,
My love winks, she does not bother,
She knows too much to argue or to judge.
The bridge at midnight trembles,
The country doctor rambles,
Bankers' nieces seek perfection,
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring.
The wind howls like a hammer,
The night blows cold and rainy,
My love she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing.
My love she speaks like silence,
Without ideals or violence,
She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire.
People carry roses,
Make promises by the hours,
My love she laughs like the flowers,
Valentines can't buy her.
In the dime stores and bus stations,
People talk of situations,
Read books, repeat quotations,
Draw conclusions on the wall.
Some speak of the future,
My love she speaks softly,
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all.
The cloak and dagger dangles,
Madams light the candles.
In ceremonies of the horsemen,
Even the pawn must hold a grudge.
Statues made of match sticks,
Crumble into one another,
My love winks, she does not bother,
She knows too much to argue or to judge.
The bridge at midnight trembles,
The country doctor rambles,
Bankers' nieces seek perfection,
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring.
The wind howls like a hammer,
The night blows cold and rainy,
My love she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing.
Yes Bob...
There is no success like failure and failure is no success at all...
Wow...think of the necessary and sufficient conditions underlying this cool freakin lyric.
That's whay Bob is a the BEST!
There is no success like failure and failure is no success at all...
Wow...think of the necessary and sufficient conditions underlying this cool freakin lyric.
That's whay Bob is a the BEST!
Is it even debatable that Dylan was the best songwriter ever? I can't understand the hate - my God, it's perfection - and as said, it's not even a top 100 song!
My love she speaks like silence,
Without ideals or violence,
She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire.
People carry roses,
Make promises by the hours,
My love she laughs like the flowers,
Valentines can't buy her.
In the dime stores and bus stations,
People talk of situations,
Read books, repeat quotations,
Draw conclusions on the wall.
Some speak of the future,
My love she speaks softly,
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all.
The cloak and dagger dangles,
Madams light the candles.
In ceremonies of the horsemen,
Even the pawn must hold a grudge.
Statues made of match sticks,
Crumble into one another,
My love winks, she does not bother,
She knows too much to argue or to judge.
The bridge at midnight trembles,
The country doctor rambles,
Bankers' nieces seek perfection,
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring.
The wind howls like a hammer,
The night blows cold and rainy,
My love she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing.
My love she speaks like silence,
Without ideals or violence,
She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire.
People carry roses,
Make promises by the hours,
My love she laughs like the flowers,
Valentines can't buy her.
In the dime stores and bus stations,
People talk of situations,
Read books, repeat quotations,
Draw conclusions on the wall.
Some speak of the future,
My love she speaks softly,
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all.
The cloak and dagger dangles,
Madams light the candles.
In ceremonies of the horsemen,
Even the pawn must hold a grudge.
Statues made of match sticks,
Crumble into one another,
My love winks, she does not bother,
She knows too much to argue or to judge.
The bridge at midnight trembles,
The country doctor rambles,
Bankers' nieces seek perfection,
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring.
The wind howls like a hammer,
The night blows cold and rainy,
My love she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing.
One of the first record albums I purchased, at age 14
romeotuma wrote:
This song is good for the heart...
mbolch30307 wrote:
+1
A solid 1 (like pretty much all Bob Dylan). Hit PSD button quickly!!
+1
mbolch30307 wrote:
Couldn't disagree more!!!
A solid 1 (like pretty much all Bob Dylan). Hit PSD button quickly!!
Couldn't disagree more!!!
mbolch30307 wrote:
Couldn't agree more!
A solid 1 (like pretty much all Bob Dylan). Hit PSD button quickly!!
Couldn't agree more!
A solid 1 (like pretty much all Bob Dylan). Hit PSD button quickly!!
Some of Dylan's best lyrics—this song is so under-rated—it didn't make Rolling Stone's top 100 Dylan songs and should have been about fifth
And after this, the set continues with Joan..... "Love is just a Four-Letter Word", great soprano! Rock out the 60's this afternoon!!.
Joan Baez in a live performance in Austin
(1990's) singing Bob Dylan's "Love Is Just A Four Letter Word"
"Dylan wrote this song, but I don't think he ever recorded it. She did a great job making it her own though." larkinoshea
Infantile lyrics, is it? I noticed you rated Hendrix's "All Along the Watchtower" a 10. I would attempt to point out the irony of that rating vis-a-vis what you wrote below, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't understand what I was talking about.
Chumbawamba-1984 wrote:
WARNING: Avoid driving or conducting heavy machinery after taking a slice of Dylan or your allergy pill.
As far as I remember hearing Dylan always caused me some sympathy for his guitar that happen to play the same tune for the past 30+ years to sustain Donald Duck's voice and his infantile lyrics.
Sorry, I simply don't get it.
Chumbawamba-1984 wrote:
WARNING: Avoid driving or conducting heavy machinery after taking a slice of Dylan or your allergy pill.
As far as I remember hearing Dylan always caused me some sympathy for his guitar that happen to play the same tune for the past 30+ years to sustain Donald Duck's voice and his infantile lyrics.
Sorry, I simply don't get it.
Nice!
romeotuma wrote:
This song is good for the ears...
Although I agree...
That constantly use description is wearing me out!
This song is good for the ears...
Although I agree...
That constantly use description is wearing me out!
a_genuine_find wrote:
7.6 / 10? Time to brush up on your math skills there, funny guy.
Minus Zero/No Limit
an apt description for this song's rating
an apt description for this song's rating
7.6 / 10? Time to brush up on your math skills there, funny guy.
Minus Zero/No Limit
an apt description for this song's rating
an apt description for this song's ratingI love Dylan just about as much as I hate his harmonica.
i love you bob.
simply beautiful
"I see trees of green ... red roses too..."
tiggers wrote:
I suppose to someone who knows nothing about music it might sound that way. Their loss.
He/she said Dylan plays the same tune over and over and can't sing . . .
I suppose to someone who knows nothing about music it might sound that way. Their loss.
Reminds me of when I went through a Dylan and Joan Baez period in university, fortunately fell off my CB550, bumped my head and got better! A great poet, this is reasonable, but often Dylan songs better when performed by others.
With this song and many others Dylan proved he could write a damn fine love song. Especially with his unique lyrical take. Poetic and above the other love songs of the time:
She knows too much to argue or to judge. Valentines can't buy her. She's true like ice, like fire. Great stuff.
She knows too much to argue or to judge. Valentines can't buy her. She's true like ice, like fire. Great stuff.
Bob's talent really lies in songwriting. This gets a "1". I can only think of one song of his that he sings that doesn't deserve a "1".
The only thing better to come out of Minnesota is I-35 South! - 
And The Replacements were pretty good, too!
And The Replacements were pretty good, too!
rrmusicguy wrote:
My most favoritest Dylan song of all.
Mine too!!!
sfListener wrote:
Waits?
Yorke.
My most favoritest Dylan song of all.
When it comes to Dylan, I first heard Stuck in Mobile with the Memphis Blues again, and then this song. I was hooked.
ThePoose wrote:
Who's ''Thom''?
Waits?
chuck_flacks wrote:
I'm amused by the rancor. Fact is, this is a Dylan song that most of us have never heard, from one of his most obscure albums. Yes, as my mother says, "his lyrics don't scan." He crams as many (often nonsensical) lyrics into a phrase as he can, but, like the earnest photographer, in the midst of all of that stuff, comes a few gems. Bob rules!
Chuck
Actually, this is a very well known song, if you know Dylan's work. I'm not so sure that most of us have never heard this. Your perspective probably reflects the shabby state of radio in this country for the past 20 years or so. I think that your statement about his overstuffing songs with lyrics can be true, at times, but there are more than a few gems.
AC wrote:
Two thirds of a lifetime on, I still know it word-for-word.
Those of you who "just don't get it"? I'm sorry. Not gonna argue the point with you.
I'll just say this about context. Whatever it is that you *do* enjoy listening to likely never woulda seen the light of day absent Dylan's work in the 60s.
He didn't just "think outside the box". He burned the freakin' box down, then smirked at the grownups for their outrage.
Stuff like this just changed everything.
Trust me.
That needed to be repeated. ">
auraltaffy wrote:
i find it fascinating that bob neil and thom so intensely polarize
theory: do the lovers hear the same 'jingle jangle' that the artist is attempting to convey, while haters hear the literal attempt?
but of course it's more complex than that, and both lovers and haters are perfectly correct
i also enjoyed the irony that jacob's "fifth avenue breakdown" single was more commercially succesful that anything dad did, while RS rated "like a rolling stone" the best song of all time.
Who's ''Thom''?
i find it fascinating that bob neil and thom so intensely polarize
theory: do the lovers hear the same 'jingle jangle' that the artist is attempting to convey, while haters hear the literal attempt?
but of course it's more complex than that, and both lovers and haters are perfectly correct
i also enjoyed the irony that jacob's "fifth avenue breakdown" single was more commercially succesful that anything dad did, while RS rated "like a rolling stone" the best song of all time.
I'm amused by the rancor. Fact is, this is a Dylan song that most of us have never heard, from one of his most obscure albums. Yes, as my mother says, "his lyrics don't scan." He crams as many (often nonsensical) lyrics into a phrase as he can, but, like the earnest photographer, in the midst of all of that stuff, comes a few gems. Bob rules!
Chuck
no matter how many times i hear this song \"she knows there\'s no success like failure and that failure is no success at all\" blows me away
On_The_Beach wrote:
Could you translate that into English? 
Sure! He/she said Dylan plays the same tune over and over and can't sing, not really news though is it?
Chumbawamba-1984 wrote:
WARNING: Avoid driving or conducting heavy machinery after taking a slice of Dylan or your allergy pill.
As far as I remember hearing Dylan always caused me some sympathy for his guitar that happen to play the same tune for the past 30+ years to sustain Donald Duck's voice and his infantile lyrics.
Sorry, I simply don't get it.
Could you translate that into English?
AC wrote:
Tell it!
Great post.
Two thirds of a lifetime on, I still know it word-for-word.
Those of you who "just don't get it"? I'm sorry. Not gonna argue the point with you.
I'll just say this about context. Whatever it is that you *do* enjoy listening to likely never woulda seen the light of day absent Dylan's work in the 60s.
He didn't just "think outside the box". He burned the freakin' box down, then smirked at the grownups for their outrage.
Stuff like this just changed everything.
Trust me.
Tell it!
Great post.
In the end, it all comes back to these songs...for me.
.."she knows too much to argue or to judge..."
I really like the version of this on the rolling thunder cd. Great song.
one of my favorite songs from one of my favorite albums.
Wow! I hope this has been played between 2003 and now! No comments in between! Has to be one of the great Dylan rarities not heard too often...
Keep 'em comin', Bill...
D'Jac
Sounds like Tom Petty's new song Down South from Highway Companion.
For those who complain of too much repetition on RP, here's one that apparently hasn't been played in 3-1/2 years. You go, Bill... 
lbrc wrote:
just bad,bad,bad!not a single tune worth the time it takes to listen to it. i feel sorry for the recording engineers. 
Some people seem proud of their staggering ignorance!
Originally Posted by AC:
Two thirds of a lifetime on, I still know it word-for-word.
Those of you who "just don't get it"? I'm sorry. Not gonna argue the point with you.
I'll just say this about context. Whatever it is that you *do* enjoy listening to likely never woulda seen the light of day absent Dylan's work in the 60s.
He didn't just "think outside the box". He burned the freakin' box down, then smirked at the grownups for their outrage.
Stuff like this just changed everything.
Trust me.
You can say it louder, but not clearer. I agree with you 110%
It beared repeating. :)
Originally Posted by AC:
Two thirds of a lifetime on, I still know it word-for-word.
Those of you who "just don't get it"? I'm sorry. Not gonna argue the point with you.
I'll just say this about context. Whatever it is that you *do* enjoy listening to likely never woulda seen the light of day absent Dylan's work in the 60s.
He didn't just "think outside the box". He burned the freakin' box down, then smirked at the grownups for their outrage.
Stuff like this just changed everything.
Trust me.
Two thirds of a lifetime on, I still know it word-for-word.
Those of you who "just don't get it"? I'm sorry. Not gonna argue the point with you.
I'll just say this about context. Whatever it is that you *do* enjoy listening to likely never woulda seen the light of day absent Dylan's work in the 60s.
He didn't just "think outside the box". He burned the freakin' box down, then smirked at the grownups for their outrage.
Stuff like this just changed everything.
Trust me.
Great song, great artist. I have seen him live a couple of times and I was not disappointed. 
Eeeeeesh... Dylan is just no good. Never was.
Song writing? Fine.
Performing? Yikes.
40 years later I know too much to argue or judge...